There were some pretty intense responses from high school graduates about the quality of their college counseling experience in the past 4 to 12 years. Public Agenda’s survey (pdf), which according to the NY Times was funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, found that a third of graduates felt that their counselors were poor helping them decide what school to go to, how to pay for it, what career to pursue, and helping them with the application process. Half of the respondents claimed that they felt like just another face in the crowd. (via NYTimes)
The NYTimes seemed to think that it is a revelation that counselors aren’t providing better advice. And yet, in huge schools, with the numbers they are talking about (1000 students per counselor), it’s not a surprise that the counselors can’t give an individual kid good advice – they barely know any individual kid. Dunbar’s number says that we can only know about 150 people with any kind of meaningful depth. Clearly, someone who doesn’t know you won’t be able to give you good advice about your future. Yes, kids, you are just another face in the crowd. (That sounds like a song I heard once, something about bricks and walls…)
The Times article makes a good point though. Counselors have a real and lasting effect on students, especially when they suck at being a counselor.
“…young people who characterized their interactions with guidance counselors as anonymous and unhelpful were less likely to go directly from high school into a postsecondary program.”
What was your experience with college admissions? Counselors in the hot seat!
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I went to a public school in the US (Virginia), graduating in 1985. I don’t even know who my counselor was. Nearly all the advice and guidance I got was from my parents, who didn’t really know much but were willing to help me figure it out.
So, I’m a bit lost. What is it that counselors are supposed to be providing that a college-bound kid can’t figure out on his/her own with help from parents? I’ve never understood why it’s a HS counselor’s job to get students into college anyway….
College counselors are supposed to have better, richer information about the college process. In the summertime, usually, college counselors go touring around various campuses, picking up information, trying to schmooze the admissions directors, etc. It’s their professional development. And then during the year, they will have first-hand knowledge of the situation at those schools. Also, the application process is complicated. But if a counselor can’t spend time with individual students, enough to be able to actually them, then it seems like a big waste of time. I have a feeling, though, that counselors in the international world are in a better position, with a better counselor-student ratio. On the other hand, it might be hard for international counselors to visit many schools during the summer – the students at international schools go far and wide, it would be impossible for a single counselor to be knowledgeable about all the possibilities.
Sure, I realize that counselors go schmoozing. But does that really give them any significant “first-hand knowledge of the situation at those schools,” beyond “Yeah, the admissions director from [College X] is a real party animal!”? Isn’t the real, reliable information something that a prospective student can gather for him-/herself using the research skills taught in any high school program?
I’m not sure what you’re arguing now – that counselors couldn’t conceivably do an important job, or that they don’t in reality. I think counselors might do good by showing kids what to look for in the vast ocean of options for after high school. It’s a huge decision, and having a guide can be helpful. I think you’re right, high school kids are CAPABLE, but when it comes down to a huge decision like college, coupled with a huge amount of work and complexity, the counselor could be crucial. And according to the data, the role of the counselor IS crucial. It’s just that many of them in the United States are not doing the job they need to be doing.
Dan’s comment about graduating in 1985, in Virginia, no less, needs to be put into context……twenty-five years ago, Dan! And in Virginia which has always had an incredibly rich state-funded university system! How could a Virginia resident go wrong in 1985?? Think also about what that college education cost you back then and factor in the incredible rise in college costs. Ten years ago, $30K would buy you room, board, and tuition at a private, name-brand US college. Now, it’s over $50K/year. Big money! Huge investment!
It’s never been our job to “get kids into college.” It is, however, our VOCATION to point the way towards the best information, to encourage the best decision-making, and to be there for students and their families in making one of most critical and costly decisions of their lives.
College counselors, like every other person in a school, come in all shapes, sizes, and with varying degrees of effectiveness. The reality is that in the public system in the US the counselor:student ratio is frightening. In private/independent schools the ratio is much more favorable but the expectations are pretty high as well.
In the international schools, there is an even bigger need for good counseling. For the US or Canadian student aiming for college in the US, being overseas presents some significant challenges. Just being aware of the options is hard when you’re outside of North America. For non-US/Canadian students in international schools, financing a college education in North America is a daunting challenge and college counselors in overseas schools are a critical link. And, yes, Dan….
The editor characterized the summer travels of the college counselor as “schmoozing.” I think that’s a bit of a loaded word. As a person who was a Director of College Counseling both in a highly competitive US independent school and in a high profile international school, I can tell you that those summers spent on the road were all about “networking.” I am glad to say that the hours and hours of networking that I spent often paid rich dividends for the students that I served.
And yes, Dan, it did indeed give me, and my colleagues significant first-hand knowledge of ever-changing opportunities for the students and families whom I served. Those weren’t summer junkets! My colleagues and I slogged through the heat and humidity of many US summers, enduring countless campus tours, interviewing scores and scores of college admission and financial aid people, eating far too many chicken dinners, and reading through college promotional materials way into the night. The work was interesting, even invigorating but it was lots and lots of hard work that paid off for our students.
International schools have done a pretty good job of creating and maintaining a strong network of college counselors. International school college counselors have a strong voice in the professional associations (NACAC, for example) where US and Canadian admissions people meet and deliberate. Parents and students have a right to expect nothing less than the best from their counselors in international schools.
Phil,
I don’t doubt that college counselors can help students with the college selection process, and even admission. As an economics teacher, I could help them with their first home purchase as well. And an art teacher might then help them decorate that home. And a PE teacher might also help them pick a gym to stay in shape, or sample different aerobics classes and instructors so that they can make quality recommendations about which gym, class, and instructor to choose. The issue is whether it is a high school’s responsibility to substantially assist in the college admissions process. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong here. Parents who pay ridiculous tuitions to international schools may want that service, and schools may provide it as a means to ensure enrollment. But surely any student who attends an international school, can — with minimal investigation — learn pretty much everything they need to know about college opportunities without tremendous individual attention from a counselor. In my opinion, counselor time would be better devote to the myriad other facets of a counselor’s job. E.g., helping students with emotional issues, drug and alcohol abuse, course selection, etc.
“Minimal investigation”……????? I dare you! When was the last time you tried?
And…..the other things that you mention for counselors to do — emotional issues, drug and alcohol abuse, course selection — they’re not unrelated, believe me! “Course selection”….to what end? “Emotional issues”…..as in What will I do with my life? “Alcohol abuse”…..it would drive even the strongest of us to drink!
Serioiusly, if you knew what a student (in an int’l school) who is NOT a US citizen whose family can NOT finance a $50K/year university education has to go through to find the resources to attend, you wouldn’t dismiss the need for college counseling quite so quickly or easily.
No need to debate this further……..I just challenge you to do what you claim is so easy. If and when you do, you’ll see what I mean.
I accepted your challenge. Here’s what I did.
I did a Google search on “how to apply to us universities”. Among the hits on the first page was a link to a College Board site. I thought, “Hmmm. College Board. I’ve heard of them. They produce the SAT.” Here’s the link:
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/apply/the-application/43.html
I read the page and discovered — to my surprise — that there’s a network of “Overseas Advising Centers” to help international students apply to US colleges and universities.
“Overseas Educational Advising Centers are located in major cities worldwide and are affiliated with the United States Information Services (USIS) and/or the United States Embassy. There you can find advisors and information to help you understand college searches, the admissions process, and financial aid opportunities. Overseas advisors are experienced and well-informed about American university systems and admissions procedures.”
Hey, that sounds pretty useful! So I clicked the link, did a search for “Nepal” (which I thought might interest you), and found that there’s such a center in Kathmandu. If I lived there, and wanted to go to school in the US, I’d contact them. Unfortunately, I live in Burma… Oh, wait. They have a center there too! Well, let’s suppose I live somewhere (more remote than Burma, even) and there’s no Advising Center. I see on the webpage that “Students who do not live close to an overseas educational advising center can send an email or visit the website of any overseas educational advising center in their region.”
The College Board site also has a search engine that will allow me to find schools based on criteria I select. Nifty!
Moving on, I entered “amazon college admissions international schools” into Goggle and found that the College Board publishes something called “International Student Handbook 2009.” I also see that those who ordered that book also ordered another book called, “Succeeding as an International Student in the United States and Canada.” Maybe I could check those out!
Total time thus far spent trying to find sources of info on applying to US universities: About 10 minutes.
I see your point, Jonathan. On the other hand, there are websites about how to save a marriage or fix my car, but I’d still trust a professional.
Read carefully, Editor. I wasn’t recommending websites. I was using websites to find books and professionals. The Overseas Educational Advising Centers have advisors who “are experienced and well-informed about American university systems and admissions procedures.”
And there’s no reason for a student to stop there. In just a couple of days, I’m sure that I could be in contact with someone at pretty much any US university. Counselors, students, alumni, faculty, financial aid officers. I can even call these people for free using Skype. And so could parents and students.
I dare say that students today, with all of the information and connections made possible by the internet, are in a *much* better position than when Dan Henderson was in high school or when Phil Clinton was an advisor.
I’m not suggesting that counselors provide no information to students regarding colleges. However, a few seminars clearly outlining the basic process ought to be sufficient.
Jonathan…..you’ve scratched the surface with the “overseas educational advising centers.” Good going. Over the years — both when I was directly involved in the college selection process and in those years when I’ve been less directly involved — I’ve liaised with these centers. Sometimes they’re well-informed, sometimes not. Keep in mind that they are funded by the USIS and that can sometimes account for the wide variety of quality. At any rate, those advising centers are usually set up to help host country nationals. You bring up Nepal, for example. That would be where Nepalese students would have their first point of contact with the US university process. That is NOT where international school students go……often, if not always, those centers are inundated with host country nationals and would have very little, if any, time for another large group of students, many of whom were not Nepalese. I suppose they’d be courteous but still, the services would be fairly limited. Another factor…..these are centers to help kids with US universities, NOT Canadian, NOT British, NOT….well, you get my point.
You over-estimate the base line knowledge of most international school students when it comes to even starting this process. I’m now back in the college advising mode at my present school in Sudan. [Side note: the US gov't doesn't see fit to fund nice information centers for kids residing in "sanctioned" countries like Sudan! But that's another story!!] Believe me, there is a heck of a lot more than just a couple of questions, or a couple of emails. The recent case of two, non-US students in our American school here in Sudan is a case in point: The students had high financial need but, as they MIGHT have been able to figure out, that meant that most of the hundreds of colleges and universities in the US would NOT be places where they would get accepted. However, with careful advice, knowing both the student and the colleges/universities, we were able to help students target a relatively small number of institutions resulting in some acceptances with excellent financial aid. This, I would submit, is something that is NOT likely to happen, going the route you suggest.
Those “overseas educational advising centers” are often (a) geared to graduate students, (b) grossly under-staffed and under-funded, (c) usually only accessible when international school students are in school, (d) usually geared to help “host country nationals” and NOT a wide variety of students from around the globe, and (c) NOT the kind of place where students are going to get anything approaching “individual attention.” Those centers are a darn-sight better than nothing but are no where near what many students will need to be successful in their search.
It’s not a question of EITHER/OR…….there’s room, and a need for BOTH.